Commercial Geothermal Up and Running

  • Several geothermal power plants at The Geysers (Photo courtesy of the US Department of Energy)

A new kind of commercial-scale
power plant is tapping the earth’s heat
and converting it to electricity. Lester
Graham reports:

Transcript

A new kind of commercial-scale
power plant is tapping the earth’s heat
and converting it to electricity. Lester
Graham reports:

A company called Raser Technologies just started up a new electric generating plant
using geothermal. No emissions, no pollution – just power.

Brent Cook is the CEO of Raser.

“This first phase of the plant that we just brought on-line will power approximately
nine-thousand homes in the city of Anaheim, California.”

Cook says this technology will work a lot of places out West where the earth’s crust
is a little thinner. You don’t have as far to drill down into the earth.

A National Renewable Energy Lab report estimates geothermal could meet about a
third of the nation’s electrical demand.

And, this new technology developed by UTC Power could work other places. For
example, it could convert waste heat from factories into electricity.

For The Environment Report, this is Lester Graham.

Related Links

Investors Wary of Diesel From Coal

  • (Photo courtesy of the US Geological Survey)

The price of gasoline and diesel fuel from
foreign oil is making people think about other ways
to fill up. Lester Graham reports the coal industry
is pushing the idea of making diesel out of coal
from the US:

Transcript

The price of gasoline and diesel fuel from
foreign oil is making people think about other ways
to fill up. Lester Graham reports the coal industry
is pushing the idea of making diesel out of coal
from the US:

The technology to make diesel fuel out of coal has been around for a while. Germany
used it in World War II.

Recently, researchers at Rutgers and the University of North Carolina developed a
more efficient way to convert coal to diesel.

So, what’s stopping coal-to-diesel? Money and risk.

Coal to diesel is feasible – if the price of oil is above $50 a barrel. Oil is around $143 a
barrel right now. So, the money is good.

Phil Gonet is president of the Illinois Coal Association. He says now investors want
some government assistance.

“That guarantees that investors will at least get their money back if OPEC starts to play
around with the world price of oil.”

And make diesel from foreign oil cheaper than diesel from domestic coal.

For The Environment Report, this is Lester Graham.

Related Links

Turning Garbage Into Gas

  • Jeffrey Langbehn beside one his family's hunting catches. He directs the Lake County Solid Waste Management District. His enthusiasm for the outdoors is one reason he says he supports the idea of finding landfill alternatives. The prospect of lower waste-handling costs is another. (Photo by Shawn Allee)

Trash is usually out of sight, out of mind, but occasionally garbage grabs attention – especially when it starts costing a lot. Landfill fees are rising, and with higher costs to ship or truck garbage, a lot of communities are scrounging for alternatives to landfills. Reporter Shawn Allee found one community that hopes a trendy fuel might solve its garbage problem:

Transcript

Trash is usually out of sight, out of mind, but occasionally garbage grabs attention – especially when it starts costing a lot. Landfill fees are rising, and with higher costs to ship or truck garbage, a lot of communities are scrounging for alternatives to landfills. Reporter Shawn Allee found one community that hopes a trendy fuel might solve its garbage problem:

For most of us, there’s nothing less sexy than trash. But in part of Indiana, that’s changing.

“One second.”

“Take your time.”

I’m waiting for Jeff Langbehn. He heads a solid waste district in Northwest Indiana.

Lately, Langbehn’s phone is ringing off the hook – from reporters and colleagues. And why are they calling? Basically, it’s because Langbehn’s county is leaning toward doing something new with garbage – something that intrigues trash bureaucrats, maybe even the one in your town.

You see, Lake County Indiana is this close to letting companies convert most of its garbage into ethanol, you know, to run cars. Langbehn says his landfill costs are rising quickly. In his case, that would be 42 dollars per ton.

“The two garbage to ethanol providers were for $17.50 ton. Those savings alone made our board say, hey, we have to pay attention to this.”

And so Lake County Indiana sat down with the ethanol operators.

“And we asked the hard questions like, ‘are there any of these things operating in the country?’ All the standard questions you would ask.”

Shawn Allee: “Wait a minute, when you asked who else has done this and they said, no one, what did you think?”

“Well, the fact of the matter is that the components are being used, and have been used for a very, very long time.”

Sure, some components of garbage-to-ethanol technology have been around for a while. But, if you ask ethanol producers where they actually turn trash into ethanol, they say they can do it in labs, or in test facilities. That’s got some folks in the trash biz nervous.

“I guess I’d say I’m cautious and wary of using any new technology to process solid waste.”

Jeremy O’Brien researches trash for the Solid Waste Association of North America – a trade group. He’s seen landfill alternatives come and go.

“Early on in the 1970s we tried a number of technologies including composting the waste stream, anaerobic digestion, and then we also tried incineration.”

Of those, only incineration survived, but early incinerators had a nasty habit of spewing toxic pollutants, stuff like dioxin, out their smokestacks. O’Brien says incinerators are now cleaner.

His point, though, is that it takes time to improve technology. He worries some communities bent on turning garbage into ethanol could end up holding the bag.

“The facility could fail early on and they’d be stuck without having a place to put their waste.”

Indiana’s Jeff Langbehn says that won’t happen to his county. He says the ethanol companies will cover their own financing, and the county will have insurance as a backup. But speaking of backups, there already is another landfill alternative, right?

Shawn Allee: “Why can’t we just recycle all this and make it into stuff people buy again?”

“There are a number of people out there that could give a rat’s patoot about recycling. And that’s the waste stream we’re having to deal with. The other reality is, recycling is expensive, so I don’t believe it’s a realistic possibility for us to recycle everything, both from a cost standpoint and a societal standpoint.”

So, Langbehn says recycling helps, but ethanol might do more. He says he kind of wishes someone else would try trash-to-ethanol technology first, but it’s worth testing out.

And he says it might be so cheap he won’t even have to hold his nose.

For The Environment Report, I’m Shawn Allee.

Related Links

Using Energy More Efficiently

  • The Sappi paper mill in Cloquet Minnesota produces most of the electricity it needs, using steam that also powers the industrial process. Sappi can even sell power when demand is high. Electric co-generation is enjoying a come-back. (Photo by Stephanie Hemphill)

More and mores states are establishing a “renewable energy standard”
for their electric utilities. So far, wind power is producing the bulk
of renewable energy. But there are other sources. Some are brand new.
Others have been around for a long time. Stephanie Hemphill reports:

Transcript

More and mores states are establishing a “renewable energy standard”
for their electric utilities. So far, wind power is producing the bulk
of renewable energy. But there are other sources. Some are brand new.
Others have been around for a long time. Stephanie Hemphill reports:


The first thing to know about electricity is that making it can be
incredibly inefficient.


In a conventional power plant, burning fuel turns water into steam.
The steam drives a turbine, which spins the generator. Only about a
third of the energy in the original fuel is converted to electricity.
Two thirds goes up the smokestack in the form of heat.


“Every time you convert energy from one form to another, you lose
something. That’s just the way it is, ’cause nothing’s perfect.”


Dwight Anderson works for Minnesota Power. He’s lived with that
inefficiency for his whole working life. Now, he’s trying to wring
more electric power out of every bit of fuel.


He’s high on something called co-generation. The basic idea is to
harness the heat or steam that normally goes up the smokestack.
There’s a good example of co-generation at the Sappi paper mill in
Cloquet, in northern Minnesota. Like many paper mills, Sappi makes
most of the electricity it needs.


Engineering Manager Rick Morgan points to a mountain of wood chips:


“We have about 20,000 tons of biomass stored.”


That’ll last less than a month. The plant uses 53,000 watts, enough to
power a small city.


Inside the sprawling buildings, there are several electric generators.
One of them is fueled by a recovery boiler, which burns the byproducts
of the paper-making process, to run steam through a turbine.


“…The actual turbine is manufactured in Czechoslovakia and the generator’s
made in Vestros, Sweden.”


Higher pressure steam spins the turbine to produce electricity. The
waste steam from the same boiler goes to the pulp dryer, the paper
machines, and other parts of the process.


Back in his office, Rick Morgan says energy is the fourth largest
expense for paper mills:


“If you can’t control energy costs in this business, you can’t be in
business.”


The main product here is paper, but sometimes Sappi sells electricity
too. That happened during a recent cold snap:


“The electric demand increases and the costs go higher and higher, to
the point that it’s financially feasible for us to generate power for
Minnesota Power.”


Opportunities to produce electricity turn up in some surprising places.
Like along natural gas pipelines. The pressure has to be boosted
periodically as the gas travels through the pipe. Compressors fueled
by the natural gas do that work, and normally they vent off waste heat.


But now in South Dakota, the waste heat is fueling small power plants.
They look like the barns and silos of a farm. The generator itself is
about the size of a truck.


Basin Electric Power Coop spokesman Daryl Hill says the plants are
owned and operated by an Israeli company, and the co-op buys the power:


“We get basically 22 megawatts of baseload for little investment.”


Other countries are leading in these approaches because their fuel
prices have been so high. As prices go up in the U.S., power producers
are finding ways to use more efficient technologies, and they’re
returning to old-fashioned ideas like combined heat and power. This is
a form of co-generation that was once common across the country.


A central electric plant uses its waste steam to heat buildings. Of
course, most people don’t want to live next to a coal-fired power
plant. But Neal Elliott, with the American Council for an Energy-
Efficient Economy, says with combined heat and power, cleaner fuels,
like natural gas, can become competitive:


“Use natural gas, but use it much more efficiently. And instead of
throwing more than half of the fuel value away, let’s do it with co-
gen.”


Elliott says combined heat and power and other forms of co-generation
could provide 20% of America’s electricity needs, and save on heating
fuel at the same time. And he says recovered energy generation like
along the natural gas pipelines could provide another 20%.


For the Environment Report, I’m Stephanie Hemphill.

Related Links

Solution for Arsenic in Drinking Water?

  • Researchers from the University of Illinois have discovered a way to remove arsenic from drinking water at its source. (photo by David Guglielmo)

Researchers believe they have found a way to reduce
arsenic levels in drinking water. They say, for people to drink water from wells or aquifers, the solution starts at the source. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Jeff Bossert explains:

Transcript

Researchers believe they have found a way to reduce arsenic levels in drinking water. They say, for people to drink water from wells or aquifers, the solution starts at the source. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Jeff Bossert explains:


Chronic exposure to arsenic in drinking water has been linked to a variety of health concerns, including hypertension, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.


Researchers from the University of Illinois collected groundwater samples from 21 wells. They found that the wells with almost no arsenic in the water also contained high levels of sulphate-reducing bacteria, which convert the arsenic into a solid, where it drops out of the water. Dr. Craig Bethke led the study.


“What we’re saying is that if there’s sulfate in the water, then there’s probably sulfate-reducing bacteria active in the subsurface, and that means that a simple field test, which is very inexpensive and very rapid to protect sulfate, could identify safe water sources.”


Bethke says places where aresenic levels are high, sulphate salts, such as gypsum and calcium sulphate, can be injected underground to reduce arsenic levels.


Researchers say this information could prove to be invaluable in places where aresenic contamination is a major problem, including parts of the U.S., Australia, and Mongolia. The researchers’ findings were published in the journal Geology.


For the Great Lakes Radio Consortium, I’m Jeff Bossert.

Related Links

Is Sewage an Untapped Energy Source?

  • Who would've thought that sewage could produce electricity? The University of Toronto's David Bagley did. (photo by Davide Gugliemo)

A Toronto researcher says most communities are underestimating a potential source of cheap electricity – raw sewage. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Karen Kelly reports:

Transcript

A Toronto researcher says most communities are underestimating a potential source
of cheap electricity – raw sewage. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Karen Kelly reports:


University of Toronto professor David Bagley collected waste water at a North
Toronto water treatment plant. He took the sewage into his lab, dried it and
then burned the solids to see how much energy they produced. He estimates the
energy produced from sewage at three treatment plants could produce more than
100 megawatts of electricity. That could be enough to keep a small town going
for a year. But Bagley says few take advantage of this resource.


“Our measurements show that there’s enough energy that we should be able to
completely offset the electricity needed to run the plant, and have extra
left over the send back to to the grid.”


Bagley finds communities are reluctant to invest in the equipment they’d
need to convert sewage into power. But he’s hoping to to design a cheaper
and more efficient system so more people can get the most out of their sewage.


For the Great Lakes Radio Consortium, I’m Karen Kelly.

Related Links

Region’s Forest Cover Growing

  • Forestland along the shore of Lake Superior. According to a new report, the amount of forests in the Great Lakes basin is increasing, but the researchers have yet to determine the quality of these forests. (Photo courtesy of U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Great Lakes National Program Office)

This week, researchers, government agencies, industry, and environmental groups are meeting in Toronto to try to assess the overall environmental health of the Great Lakes. The gathering is known as the State of the Lakes Ecosystem Conference. And as the Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Mark Brush reports, the group says there’s good news about the amount of forestland in the region:

Transcript

This week, researchers, government agencies, industry, and environmental
groups are meeting in Toronto to try to assess the overall environmental
health of the Great Lakes. The gathering is known as the State of the Lakes
Ecosystem Conference. And as the Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Mark Brush
reports, the group says there’s good news about the amount of forestland in
the region:


The report prepared for this year’s conference says there is more forestland
in the Great Lakes Basin when comparing recent data to data collected more than
a decade ago. The report’s authors say forestland now covers a little over half
of the basin’s total land.


Constance Carpenter is with the U.S. Forest Service. She helped develop the report.
She says forests are crucial to maintaining the environmental health of the Lakes.


“They do a lot of things in terms of water quality. They’re able to provide conditions
that really contribute to watershed health in terms of, you know, moderating flood peaks,
storing water, filtering pollutants, transforming chemicals, all those things.”


Carpenter says one of the reasons forestland is increasing is because fewer people are
farming. She says as people leave behind fields and pasturelands, those lands often
convert back to forestland. The authors caution that their data did not look at whether
these forests are near lakes and streams, where their influence on the overall health of
the Lakes is greatest.


For the Great Lakes Radio Consortium, I’m Mark Brush.

Related Links

Cultivating the Humanure Revolution

  • Source: The Humanure Handbook. Jenkins Publishing, PO Box 607, Grove City, PA 16127 www.jenkinspublishing.com

Books can be powerful. Sometimes they can even change your life. As part of our ongoing series on individual choices that impact the environment— “Your Choice; Your Planet”—the Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Curtis Gilbert brings us the story of one book that changed his mother’s life… a book that so profoundly affected her that she felt compelled to share its teachings with strangers. It wasn’t the Bible or the Koran… or “Chicken Soup for the Soul.” And the part of his mother’s life that it changed is one so exceedingly private that most people don’t even like to talk about it. He’ll explain:

Transcript

Books can be powerful. Sometimes they can even change your life. As part of our ongoing
series on individual choices that impact the environment — “Your Choice; Your Planet” —
the Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Curtis Gilbert brings us the story of one book that
changed his mother’s life…a book that so profoundly affected her that she felt compelled
to share its teachings with strangers. It wasn’t the Bible or the Koran… or “Chicken Soup
for the Soul.” And the part of his mother’s life that it changed is one so exceedingly private
that most people don’t even like to talk about it. He’ll explain:


There’s a sound — something familiar to everyone who lives in a Western, industrialized
country — but it’s a sound you’ll almost never hear at my mother’s house.


(sound of toilet flushing)


Five years ago, my mom turned off the to water to her toilet. She put a house plant on top
of the seat and opposite it built a five-gallon bucket in a box that took over all the duties
of its porcelain counterpart.


“Well I had seen ‘The Humanure Handbook’ in the FEDCO Seed catalog — and it just sort of
intrigued me. And I decided one year that I would read it since I was curious about it year after
year. And I read it and then I began to feel really bad every time I flushed the toilet.”


That’s because every time my mom flushed the toilet she was rendering undrinkable several
gallons of otherwise perfectly good water. And what’s more, she was whisking away valuable
nutrients that she could have just as easily returned to the earth.


That’s right… Humanure is a contraction consisting of two words: human and manure.


Here’s how it works: You use the humanure bucket in pretty much the same way you’d use a flush
toilet. Everything’s the same, except that instead of flushing when you’re done, there’s another
bucket right beside the humanure bucket and it’s filled with sawdust. You use a little cup to
scoop up some sawdust and then you just dump the sawdust in the humanure bucket when you’re
finished using it. That’s it. And the crazy thing, the thing that always surprises people when
I tell them about my mother’s humanure project is that it doesn’t smell bad.


“Anytime anything’s stinky in the humanure, you just cover it with sawdust and it doesn’t stink
anymore, except of course what is already in the air, which is like any toilet.”


Once a day my mom takes the bucket brimming with sawdust and humanure and dumps it into her
massive compost pile. There, it mingles with her kitchen scraps, weeds from the garden, and
just about every other bit of organic matter she can find… and in two years time the humanure
cooks down into dark, rich, fertile soil.


For the first couple of years, my mom was content just to operate her own humanure compost
heap and let her garden reap the benefits — but the more she did it the more of a true believer
she became. Strict adherence to the faith wasn’t enough for her anymore. She had to become a
missionary. She bought a case of Humanure Handbooks and set up a booth at an organic gardening
festival called Wild Gathering.


“And I think I sold one at that Wild Gathering. And then after that I was giving them away right
and left to my sisters and nieces and friends and whoever! And I used them all up and then this
last year I decided that not only was I going to get another box of Humanure Handbooks, I was
going to collect humanure at Wild Gathering!”


My mom knew she’d a lot of buckets for the project, so went door to door at the businesses
in town. She didn’t say what she needed them for, and luckily they didn’t ask. She collected eight
buckets full in all — not quite the payload she was hoping for. Attendance at Wild Gathering was
pretty low that year, due to rain, but relatively speaking, sales of the Humanure Handbook were
way up.


“I sold more at this last Wild Gathering. I think I sold five or six. And I gave one away for
Christmas this year to Natasha, who had been having plumbing problems. And I started my spiel and
she was really quite interested. And, I think we may have a convert there before long.”


Conversion. The ultimate goal of any evangelist. My mom admits that she doesn’t know of anyone
she’s actually brought into the fold — but she likes to think she’s planting seeds. Just
introducing people to the idea that there’s a alternative to flush toilets, she says, is a huge
step forward.


“This is really a shocking idea to a lot of people and a lot of people who come to the house will
not use it. I have to make the water toilet available to them.”


My grandmother won’t use it. Neither will my mom’s friend, Rochelle. And then there’s my
girlfriend, Kelsey. Last summer the two of us spent several days at my mom’s house in Maine
before taking a road trip back to where we live in Minnesota. After quietly weighing the
ramifications of sawdust versus water toilets, Kelsey finally decided to brave the humanure…
well, sort of.


Curtis: “So you used it for some things, but you’ve told me before that there were some things
that you couldn’t bring yourself to do.”


(laughing)


Kelsey: “No, I couldn’t. I did not have a bowel movement during our entire visit to your
house, over the course of four days.”


I’d like to think that Kelsey’s physical inability to make full use of the sawdust toilet
was an anomaly, that most people would have no problem going to the bathroom at my mom’s house
in Maine… But I doubt that’s the case. And that’s not the only reason I’m a little skeptical about
my mom’s vision of a world humanure revolution.


Curtis: “It occurs to me, and I’m about 100 pages into the book at this point, that this is
all well and good for people living in rural areas, but I live in a city. Where am I going to
put a compost heap?”


Mom: “You know, there could be chutes in buildings. There would have to be temporary storage.
Trucks would come in and take it out. Great huge compost piles would be built and it would work
down very… I think that where there’s a will, there’s a way.”


I’ll admit it; I’m still skeptical. I mean I believe in humanure, sure. But I also haven’t
put a house plant on top of the toilet in my big city apartment…and I probably never will.
Call me a summer soldier in the humanure revolution if you will, but when I go home to my
Mom’s next Christmas, I’ll be flushing with sawdust and I’ll be proud.


For the Great Lakes Radio Consortium, I’m Curtis Gilbert.

Related Links

Nature Viewed Through Prism of Religion

  • Tom Rakow, right, points out to Kent Rydberg the patch of forest with the tree stand he'll be using. Rakow is the founder and president of the Christian Deer Hunters Association. Rydberg is the membership director. (MPR Photo/Jeff Horwich).

Conservation means different things to different people. Your interests or your profession might color your view. For example, a hunter, an environmental activist, or a farmer might each define conservation dramatically differently. But other aspects of our lives also affect our views about nature. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Jeff Horwich says for some people, the idea of conservation is closely connected with their idea of spirituality:

Transcript

Conservation means different things to different people. Your interests or your profession might
color your view. For example, a hunter, an environmental activist, or a farmer might each define
conservation dramatically differently. But, other aspects of our lives also affect our views about
nature. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium’s Jeff Horwich says for some people the idea of
conservation is closely connected with their idea of spirituality:


At one time whole families, whole villages used to live or die by the hunt. So for some hunters, it
seems fitting that before they go out to kill something the afternoons start with a prayer.


“Lord help us to hunt in such a way that it is pleasing to you. . .We recognize you’re
here.. .We just put it in your hands, in
Christ’s name, Amen.”


It’s a cloudy, windy day in the countryside west of Hutchinson, Minnesota. Tom Rakow and
Kent Rydberg stand side-by-side with their bows, president and membership director of the
Christian Deer Hunters Association. The group is based at Rakow’s home in Silver Lake, but
claims hundreds of dues-paying members around the country.


Rakow grew up in Wisconsin, and came to deer hunting long before he came to God.


“Unfortunately I poached my first deer while I was squirrel hunting at age 11, and things just kinda
went downhill from there. Deer hunting was my God.”


A teenage Rakow was carrying an archery permit when he shot his first deer with a .22, an illegal
kill. So, to make it look legal, he stuck an arrow in its side and got away with it.


Rakow went through a religious conversion at 21. He became a born-again Christian. He says he
realized deer hunting was his own false idol. He says either he had to find a way to harmonize
God and deer hunting or the hunting had to go.


“That’s buck manure. And here’s another scrape there.”


We’re moving over a plowed field, into tall grass on our way to tree stands in the forest.
Needless to say, the Reverend Rakow is now at peace with his two passions. He ministers to 80
people in his independent church each Sunday, and spends up to 30 days in the woods each fall.


Rakow’s theology of hunting balances two messages from the Bible. First is the chance to
appreciate God’s natural splendor. Rakow marvels at pheasants, mice, and of course, deer.


“Ultimately God created that deer. What did I have to do with that? You know, he fed that deer in the wild,
caused the antlers to grow, I didn’t have any part of that.”


But the Bible’s second message is the mandate to hunt. Rakow cites Psalm 8.


“There is a hierarchy. Humans, you, I, we have been made in the image of God. We have a
divine responsibility. We should be stewards over creation and part of that is hunting as a management
tool.”


Using the Bible as a hunting guide leads to some distinctive viewpoints. The Christian Deer
Hunter on trespassing:


“If we love our neighbor as ourself, we’re not going to be going somewhere where they don’t want us to
be.”


On authority:


“So as far as you can see, the Bible and the DNR are pretty well in sync with one another?”


“Well, I don’t know if I want to go that far. But Romans:13, Paul writing to the believers in Rome, he
says that powers that be have been ordained of God and we are to submit to those powers.”


And on the plague of chronic wasting disease ravaging deer in his home region of Wisconsin:


“Being from that area, I mean, I know that there are a lot of people that to them deer hunting ranked up there
where it once did for me, where it was more important than God.”


Rakow wouldn’t necessarily call chronic wasting disease a punishment brought by God. But he
does see it as a result of violating the good stewardship rules laid out in the Bible.


And the perspective of the Christian deer hunter raises new questions that have not yet captured
the public imagination.


“I’m completing a book, that one of the chapters is Would Jesus Shoot Bambi?”


The answer is complicated, but it boils down to this: Bambi is not a real deer and yes, Jesus
would.


For an hour we sit in dead silence, 20 feet apart and 15 feet off the ground in tree stands. Then,
behind us, some rustling. Rakow tenses, his bowstring drawn back to his shoulder.


Rakow’s trailing string winds off into the brush.


“I think I just basically trimmed some hairs off his back. When I find my arrow that’s usually not
the best sign.”


But for the Christian Deer Hunter, it’s all right. The membership director, Kent Rydberg, didn’t get
one either. But God talks to him all the time on the deer stand, and that’s something.


“When God’s all around you, it’s sort of hard to put him out of the way. So there’s been some
really good thinking times.”


Of course it’s always better to fill your permit. But these guys have decided it’s not just deer
they’re hunting for out here.


For the Great Lakes Radio Consortium, I’m Jeff Horwich.