Shrinking Salmon Populations

  • A close view of salmon eggs and developing salmon fry. (Photo courtesy of the US Fish and Wildlife Service)

A federal judge says the Obama
Administration soon has to come
up with a plan to restore endangered
salmon runs to the Pacific Northwest’s
biggest rivers. Ann Dornfeld went
gill net fishing on the Columbia
River to find out what’s at stake:

Transcript

A federal judge says the Obama
Administration soon has to come
up with a plan to restore endangered
salmon runs to the Pacific Northwest’s
biggest rivers. Ann Dornfeld went
gill net fishing on the Columbia
River to find out what’s at stake:

(sound of a boat moving through water)

Gary Soderstrom is a fourth-generation Columbia River salmon fisherman. Even though it’s his work, on a sunny summer day there are few places he’d rather be than casting a gill net on this tranquil bay near the mouth of the Columbia.

“Just being this far from the dock, it’s just a whole different world! All the nights and the days I’ve put out here, I still feel good when I get out here.” (laughs)

Soderstrom – or Suds, as he’s better known – says gillnetters today catch salmon pretty much the same way his great-great-grandfather caught them. The main difference today is motors help fishers lay out and reel in their nets.

(sound of reel squeaking as net is laid)

“See how he’s layin’ up the bank here, and then he’s gonna go across. That’ll create a trap for the fish if he leads ’em over to the beach, and they might get confused.”

The technique might not have changed much. But this river has. These days, a dozen species of salmon and steelhead on the Columbia are listed as endangered. One of the biggest factors is the hydroelectric dam system that provides most of the power to the Pacific Northwest. Those dams keep young salmon from making it to the ocean. Suds says that’s why his son won’t be a fifth generation fisherman.

“There used to be several thousand fishermen on the Columbia at one time. Now there’s a couple hundred of us that are still active. Most guys like my son and them have went and got other jobs to try and raise families on.”

Federal law requires the government to restore the endangered salmon runs. For years, fishers and environmental groups have been calling for the removal of four dams on the Snake River, a tributary of the Columbia.

But the Clinton and Bush Administrations backed other plans to restore salmon runs. Those plans ranged from spilling a small portion of water through the dams to trucking baby salmon around the dams. Federal courts rejected those plans as insufficient. Now a federal judge has told the Obama Administration it has until mid-September to come up with a plan that goes far beyond the scheme President Bush proposed last year.

Ann Dornfeld: “What do you think is the chance that they’re gonna take out the dams?”

Gary Soderstrom: “Well, about like me winnin’ the Powerball! (laughs) I mean, don’t think it’s ever gonna happen, but realistically, it’d work.”

Suds says he’d also like to see tougher restrictions put on farmers who irrigate their crops with water from the Columbia.

“Irrigation systems, a lot of them are still water hogs. I think they should be forced into using the least amount of water they can get by with.”

It’s been about 15 minutes, and it’s time to reel in the nets.

(sound of reeling in nets)

We’ve brought in one 17-pound coho.

(sound of salmon hitting the floor)

But like most of the other fish caught on the Columbia these days, it was raised in a hatchery upstream.

Suds says for years he’s been volunteering his time on advisory councils and boards throughout the state to try to restore the habitat that once brought millions of salmon down the river the natural way. But what he’d really like to do is meet with President Obama and explain the river’s history to him firsthand.

“But in my situation, being a peon fisherman, you’ll never get to talk to a guy like him. Y’know, if you could bring him out here and show him what I’ve shown you today, maybe he’d have a clearer understanding of what’s going on out here.”

Suds Soderstrom says he wants the president to make good on his promise to let science dictate his policies, rather than politics – which always seem to favor development.

“Sooner or later you’re either gonna have fish or people. And the people seem to be winning.”

The new Administration has until September 15th to propose its plan to save endangered salmon. The federal judge who’s been overseeing the process for years has made one requirement: this time, the plan has to work.

For The Environment Report, I’m Ann Dornfeld.

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Open Season on Wolves

  • Idaho Fish and Game sold 1,825 wolf tags in the first hour. By mid-afternoon the first day, about 4,000 tags had been sold. (Photo courtesy of the US Fish and Wildlife Service)

It’s open season on wolves starting
today. Lester Graham reports
Idaho has issued tens of thousands
of hunting permits for the first
wolf season since the animal was
taken off the endangered species
list:

Transcript

It’s open season on wolves starting
today. Lester Graham reports
Idaho has issued tens of thousands
of hunting permits for the first
wolf season since the animal was
taken off the endangered species
list:

This is the first time a state has allowed an open hunting season on the wolf since it was protected by federal law.

Jon Rachael is state game manager for Idaho’s Fish and Game. He says there are about 1,000 wolves – far more than the original plan when the wolves were reintroduced.

So, hunters can kill as many as 220 of them.

“The intent of that is to reduce the population slightly. But that would leave us in the neighborhood of about 800 wolves at the end of the year.”

A Montana hunting season would allow another 75 wolves to be killed.

Environmentalists say it’s outrageous to kill so many wolves in the northern Rockies so soon after they were taken off the endangered species list.

The Environmental group Defenders of Wildlife sued to stop the wolf hunting season. A federal judge has not yet ruled on whether to stop the hunt.

For The Environment Report, I’m Lester Graham.

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Saving the Snail Kite

  • Environmental scientist Rachael Pierce and her team travel on airboats into the marshes around Lake Okeechobee. (Photo by Rebecca Williams)

We’ve spent billions of dollars
just trying to partially restore
the Everglades in Florida. Now,
there’s a struggle to save a bird
there that’s close to extinction.
It’s a raptor called the snail kite.
It’s becoming one of the symbols
for saving the Everglades. Rebecca
Williams has more:

Transcript

We’ve spent billions of dollars
just trying to partially restore
the Everglades in Florida. Now,
there’s a struggle to save a bird
there that’s close to extinction.
It’s a raptor called the snail kite.
It’s becoming one of the symbols
for saving the Everglades. Rebecca
Williams has more:

The snail kite eats pretty much only one thing – a snail called the apple snail.

The apple snail’s been disappearing – partly because of people messing with water levels in the Everglades for farming and cities.

Scientist Rachael Pierce and her team have raised apple snails in the lab and let them go in a marsh at the edge of Lake Okeechobee. Now they need them to stick around and have babies.

“It’s unlikely the snail kites will come back here to this marsh because we haven’t released that many snails. But in the future when we scale this up we do hope to start seeing snail kites.”

The survival of the snail kite depends on this working. And, some people say, if the snail kite goes extinct, things won’t look good for the restoration of the Everglades.

For The Environment Report, I’m Rebecca Williams.

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Close Contact Endangers Dolphins

  • More people are feeding dolphins and getting too close to them in their boats. (Photo courtesy of Mote Marine Laboratory)

Television dolphins like Flipper
and the performing dolphins at
Sea World can trick people into
thinking it’s okay to feed and
swim with wild dolphins. But
Rebecca Williams reports dolphin
researchers say our behavior can
hurt and even kill dolphins:

Transcript

Television dolphins like Flipper
and the performing dolphins at
Sea World can trick people into
thinking it’s okay to feed and
swim with wild dolphins. But
Rebecca Williams reports dolphin
researchers say our behavior can
hurt and even kill dolphins:

(sound of a shorebird crying out)

Fort Myers beach is packed with tourists. I meet a guy named Justin who’s here in Florida from Cleveland. He’s already gotten close to wild dolphins.

“We were out here swimming and dolphins got within a foot of us. It was amazing. I’ve never seen that.”

In this case, he wasn’t doing anything wrong – because the dolphins came up to him. But swimming with wild dolphins can actually be considered harassment if you approach them or touch them.

That’s bad for the dolphins because it can change their behavior. It can disturb their feeding and resting behavior. And it can separate dolphins from their babies.

So it’s illegal to swim with or harass dolphins. You can get fined and even end up with some jail time. And that’s just the beginning of the dolphins’ problems.

Dolphin encounters are getting more common in Florida and Hawaii and a lot of other places. There’ve been more tourists and more boaters in the water… and more commercial operations that promise you’ll get a chance to feed or swim with dolphins.

As cool as it might be for us, it’s actually terrible for dolphins. When people feed them they can get addicted to human handouts.

Cartoon Dolphin PSA: “For me it started with one hit of sardines, oh sardines… that’s where I learned to beg. It was easy to score free fish… with this dolphin smile? Yeah it’s illegal but no one cares…”

That’s a cartoon dolphin in rehab with a bear, a raccoon and a seagull. All those other animals we’ve gotten into some bad habits with.

It’s a message put out by the Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota.

(sound of dolphin playing in tank at the Marine Lab)

Randall Wells is the head of dolphin research at the lab. He’s spent almost four decades studying dolphins.

He says, in recent years, there’s been a dramatic increase in the number of dolphins getting into trouble with people. More people feeding them and getting too close to dolphins in their boats.

“And we’ve seen an increase in mortality from these kinds of interactions – from people luring animals in towards boats, in towards fishing gear. Dolphins have begun to take bait from lines getting tackle including hooks and lures in their bodies and killing them or seriously injuring them.”

He says, if you feed a dolphin, it’ll often start begging for food from people. And that dolphin will teach its babies or other dolphins to beg.

Sometimes they’ll even eat things that aren’t food. One dead dolphin had a plastic snake in its stomach.

If dolphins get closer to boats, they can get snared in fishing line. It can slice through their flippers. Once, Randall Wells rescued a dolphin that had a Speedo on its head. And because it couldn’t shake it off, the suit was cutting into the dolphin’s flesh.

Wells and his team have been doing a lot of outreach to stop people from getting too close to dolphins. And he says most of the time, it works.

“But there’s still a half percent of people that, by their own admission, insist on interacting with these animals – feeding them and approaching them in ways that are illegal, just because they can and they’ve never seen the negative consequences of doing that.”

If you want to go on one of those dolphin viewing tours, there are some ways to make sure the tour operator’s not adding to the problem.

Stacey Horstman helps run a program called Dolphin Smart. It certifies dolphin tours as responsible.

Right now there are only four businesses in Key West and one in Alabama that’ve gotten certified. But, she says, if you’re in a place without Dolphin Smart tours, you can still ask questions.

“Just to make sure that feeding is not being promoted in any way, that they’re promoting responsible viewing from a distance.”

That means staying at least 50 yards away from dolphins.

She says any ad that shows people swimming with dolphins or handing them fish is usually a sign of an irresponsible business. So those are ones to stay away from.

Dolphins might look cute and friendly, but Horstman says they are wild animals and they need their space.

For The Environment Report, I’m Rebecca Williams.

Related Links

‘World’s Biggest Company’ in Crisis

  • The Black-and-White Ruffed Lemur, threat category: Critically Endangered (Photo by Jean-Christophe Vié, courtesy of the IUCN)

There’s a new report out on the
state of the world’s creatures.
It’s called the Red List of Threatened
Species. And, as you can imagine,
the Red List is not a good list to
be on. Mark Brush has more:

Transcript

There’s a new report out on the state of the world’s creatures. It’s called the Red List of Threatened Species. And, as you can imagine, the Red List is not a good list to be on. Mark Brush has more:

This report is put out by the International Union for Conservation of Nature. They cataloged about 45,000 species worldwide. They say about 38% of those are threatened with extinction.

Species sometimes naturally go extinct. But, the researchers say, today’s extinction rates are happening a lot faster – mostly because people are destroying habitat.

Jean-Christophe Vié is the senior editor of the report.

“If you think of nature as a company, it’s the largest in the world. So now we are in this economic crisis, if there was one company to save, it’s not the car industry, or saving a bank – it’s saving nature, because it’s for the benefit of all of us.”

Vié says they were only able to report on about 3% of all the known species around the world.

But, they still feel they have a pretty good idea of the overall trend. And it’s not a good trend.

For The Environment Report, I’m Mark Brush.

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Keeping Panthers and People From Colliding

  • Rebecca Galligan with her dogs Roscoe and Sable in their new panther-proof pet house. Galligan and her husband lost their dog Riley to a panther, so they had this enclosure built to keep their pets safe. (Photo by Rebecca Williams)

People are killing Florida panthers.
Usually it’s not intentional. But
Rebecca Williams reports biologists
are trying to figure out how to keep
panthers and people from running into
each other:

Transcript

People are killing Florida panthers.
Usually it’s not intentional. But
Rebecca Williams reports biologists
are trying to figure out how to keep
panthers and people from running into
each other:

There are only about 100 Florida panthers left in the wild. They’re endangered.

If you live down here, it’s one thing to know there are panthers hunting for food in the Everglades. But it’s something else when they visit your backyard.

(sound of tropical birds singing)

Rebecca Galligan and her husband didn’t give panthers all that much thought. Until one day, when they came home from work, and found their dog Riley had been killed.

“The scratches on the body and the way he’d been killed it was pretty obvious it was some sort of wild cat.”

Two days earlier something had killed their neighbor’s sheep. Then a dozen goats got killed.

A biologist decided the predator was a panther. In the past few years in South Florida, more people have been losing pets and farm animals to hungry panthers.

Galligan calling to dog: “C’mere, have a seat!” (Roscoe sniffs the microphone)

Now, when she’s away, Rebecca Galligan keeps her dogs Roscoe and Sable in a little panther-proof house. It’s made out of steel and chain link fencing.

“There’s so much nature and wildlife, and so I mean, we just can’t destroy it all because we want to be safe. That’s why we had this pen built, so we can keep the animals a little safer from the animals that live around us.”

And a lot of people here think the panthers have a right to stick around.

But some say there’s a gaping hole in the law that’s supposed to protect panthers.

The panther has never had what’s called critical habitat set aside. That means developers don’t have to consider the land panthers need to survive. Panther habitat or not, they can just build.

So panthers are getting crowded out by subdivisions and huge new cities.

Andrew McElwaine is president of the Conservancy of Southwest Florida. He’s asked the Obama Administration to officially give panthers that habitat.

“So, the more habitat we take away, we’re forcing panthers to move out. We’re getting reports of panthers in urban areas of Southwest Florida looking for somewhere to live, if you will.”

And, as people move in, panthers are becoming roadkill.

Last year 10 panthers were killed by cars. So far, this year, six more panthers have been killed.

(sound of cars whizzing by)

“There are some panther tracks here. There’s one there… and there…”

Mark Lotz is a panther biologist. We’re hanging out in an underpass below the highway. It was built for panthers. Miles of fences run along the highway and make a funnel, so panthers have to go below the road.

Lotz says there are 36 panther underpasses on this stretch of highway. And he says fewer panthers get hit here. But underpasses are expensive – about $2 million each. And giving panthers room to live isn’t always even that simple.

Lotz says the biggest challenge is getting people to adapt to panthers. To him, the cats are majestic. But he also knows a lot of people think they’re terrifying. Somebody actually shot a panther a few months ago.

“Naysayers could make the argument there’s no panthers in Pennsylvania or any other eastern state and things are going just fine. But then I would counter – look what’s happening with deer populations there. You know, panthers are part of the ecosystem. Without them there’s just something missing. In a way part of the wildness disappears.”

But if panthers keep running out of space, they could disappear.

We talked to the Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar. And we asked him whether he’d set aside critical habitat for panthers.

“Yeah, we’ll have to get back to you on that.”

That’s been the kind of response he’s given to other reporters too.

Giving panthers habitat protection would mean more obstacles for developers. And, in this economy, that could be pretty unpopular.

For The Environment Report, I’m Rebecca Williams.

Related Links

Rare Right Whale Recorded

  • Only two Right Whales have been spotted in the last 50 years off the southern tip of Greenland (Photo courtesy of NOAA)

Scientist think they’ve found
a rare whale in a place where
they thought they were wiped
out. Sadie Babits reports,
they haven’t seen the whale
but they’ve heard it:

Transcript

Scientist think they’ve found
a rare whale in a place where
they thought they were wiped
out. Sadie Babits reports,
they haven’t seen the whale
but they’ve heard it:

Scientists thought the North Atlantic Right Whale
was gone. Only two of them have been spotted in
the last 50 years off the southern tip of Greenland.

But some underwater microphones picked up right
whale calls.

“They sound like mmmmmmick… kind of like that.”

That’s David Mellinger. He teaches at Oregon State
University.

He says they recorded more than two
thousand right whale calls in a year. That doesn’t
mean there are a lot of the whales, but Mellinger
says hearing any in the North Atlantic is significant.

“Because the population is so endangered. There
are only 300-350 maybe right whales in the world.
So finding any new whales is important.”

But there is a concern. As the Arctic Ice Cap
melts because of global warming, more ships are
expected to pass through the area. That could
mean ships could strike and kill the few right
whales that are left.

For The Environment Report, I’m Sadie Babits.

Related Links

Some States Planning Wolf Hunts

  • In some states, there are plans for a wolf hunting season (Photo courtesy of the US Fish and Wildlife Service)

Some states plan to let people hunt wolves. Rebecca Williams reports that’s happening because the US government is taking gray wolves off the federal endangered species list in two places:

Transcript

Some states plan to let people hunt wolves. Rebecca Williams reports that’s happening because the US government is taking gray wolves off the federal endangered species list in two places:

This decision means states in the western Great Lakes and several Rocky Mountain states will have control over wolves.

Some states are calling wolves a protected nongame species.

For example in Michigan, a wolf can only be killed if it’s attacking people, pets or livestock. But in other states – like Idaho and Montana – there are plans for a hunting season for wolves.

Jonathan Lovvorn is chief counsel for the Humane Society of the United States. His group and several others are planning to sue.

“Essentially what we’re worried about is that this is basically going to be a declaration of open season on animals that have been protected for decades.”

The federal decision to take wolves off the endangered species list could be overturned in court. That happened last fall.

If the decision sticks, then the Fish and Wildlife Service will be keeping an eye on wolf populations for at least the next five years.

For The Environment Report, I’m Rebecca Williams.

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From River Towns to Eagle Towns

  • This year, the Dubuque, Iowa Eagle Watch organizers invited the World Bird Sanctuary of St. Louis to bring a captive bald eagle so families could get as close a look as possible without feeling the winter chill. (Photo by Shawn Allee)

The American bald eagle is the Endangered Species Act’s poster child, it’s Come-back
kid. This time of year, a lot of towns organize eagle watches to celebrate the success
story and to attract tourists. Reporter Shawn Allee couldn’t resist visiting one:

Transcript

The American bald eagle is the Endangered Species Act’s poster child, it’s Come-back
kid. This time of year, a lot of towns organize eagle watches to celebrate the success
story and to attract tourists. Reporter Shawn Allee couldn’t resist visiting one:

I wasn’t exactly sure where to spot eagles in Dubuque, Iowa, so for the annual Eagle Watch, I
started indoors – at the city’s convention center.

There were plenty of eagle-related knick-knacks for sale – like eagle bobble-heads, plush toys,
and photos.

But locals there told me where to find eagles, and why the Eagle Watch means so much.

“Twenty years ago, we read about eagles, we heard about eagles but we never ever saw
one.”

That’s Dubuque photographer, Robert Eichman.

Eichman: “I’ve been taking pictures for 65 years. I probably never got a picture of an eagle
until about 7 or 8 years ago, so I have witnessed their comeback.”

Allee: “So, now this is one of their hotspots.”

Eichman: “Right. This time of year, there may be four- to five-hundred eagles roosting on
the bluffs on either side of the river.”

Eichman said the best place to see them is on the Mississippi River. There’s a dam that stops the
river – and a lock that let’s boats through. He suggested I try the Eagle Watch trolley.

Allee: “Hi there. Are you going to the lock?”

Driver: “Yeah.”

Allee: “Great.”

Dubuque’s had an Eagle Watch event for twenty one years, but dozens of towns in the
upper Midwest sponsor them in January and February.

Eagles were declared endangered in the early seventies because a pesticide was killing their
young. They’re now off the federal endangered and threatened list.

Seeing an eagle is still novel enough that there’s a small tourist industry built around their winter
hunting grounds.

Driver: “Right up here to the left folks, there are four, five, six right in a row.”

Allee: “There they are. It’s amazing. I’ll get out here.”

I’d seen a few eagles before but never this many at once; they were in trees and swooping over
the river. I headed to a lookout run by the army corps of engineers.

Park ranger Bret Streckwald was there to answer questions.

Allee: “Why is it this is such a good location to see bald eagles in the winter time?”

Streckwald: “Well, it’s the lock and dam, and they’re primary food is fish.”

Allee: “So, on our left, it’s solid ice on the Mississippi River, then what do we see on the
right?”

Streckwald: “Open water. The dam keeps the water open and the fish go through the dam
and they’re stunned a little bit, and it makes it pretty easy for the eagles to feed on them.”

Allee: “Hardly seems fair, but it keeps the eagles pretty healthy.”

Streckwald: “Yeah, they’re all pretty well-fed.”

Allee: “So what do you have set up here?”

Streckwald: “We have some spotting scopes set up on the various eagles that are stationary
and obviously we have the birds that are flying. We have a lot of people that like to take
pictures.”

Allee: “I don’t know how good this shot is going to be with my very amateurish camera,
but…”

Boy: “Dad – I saw one in the telescope. I saw one in the telescope flying! Whoa … ahuh.”

Allee: “I think this boy had the right idea, I’m now looking through one of these telescopes
the army corps of engineers set up for us. And I can see this eagle perfectly. The ice is
bobbing up and down, and he’s going with it. He’s staring out on the water, steely-eyed. It’s
a nice image.”

For The Environment Report, I’m Shawn Allee.

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Lead Poisoning and California Condors

  • Adult California Condor in flight (Photo courtesy of the US Fish and Wildlife Service)

It’s been decades, but there are now more California Condors in the wild than there
are in captivity. That’s thanks to two condor chicks who recently left their nests in
the Grand Canyon. As Sadie Babits reports, biologists are thrilled, but one of the
problems that caused the decline in condors still exists:

Transcript

It’s been decades, but there are now more California Condors in the wild than there
are in captivity. That’s thanks to two condor chicks who recently left their nests in
the Grand Canyon. As Sadie Babits reports, biologists are thrilled, but one of the
problems that caused the decline in condors still exists:


At the World Center for Birds of Prey in Boise, Idaho, there’s a wood fence that
protects the California Condors that live behind it.

“Just lately in order to minimize the exposure of our adult breeding pairs to humans,
we’ve built this security fence or actually it’s a visual barrier, we call it.”

That’s Bill Heinrich. He overseas the California Condor Recovery program at the
Center.

There is this one small break in the fence – a part that hasn’t been built yet. And
behind some chain link, I can see some very large birds…

Sadie: “Is that a Condor right there??”

Bill: “Yeah… you can see an adult condor standing, a pair of them on a perch.”

Sadie: “Ooohhhh!”

Bill: “You can kind of get an idea of just how big they really are.

Sadie: “They’re huge!”

Bill: “They weigh anywhere from 18-25 pounds and have close to a 10 foot wingspan.”

In the early 1980s the California Condors almost went the way of the Dodo –
extinct. Only 22 of these birds remained in the wild.

The big birds were killed by hunters. They died from lead poisoning after eating
animals killed with lead bullets. And their own genetic makeup didn’t help much
either.

These birds, shall we say, have a low sex drive. Rather than produce chicks every
year and gamble that they’ll survive, condors lay one egg every other year. That
hasn’t worked so well.

So biologists thought they’d help. They started capturing the endangered condors to
begin a captive breeding program. In 1987, the last wild bird was caught.

Bill Heinrich recalls there was plenty of controversy over that decision.

“People thought well you should let them go extinct with dignity or you can try to
breed them in captivity but you might fail and then you would have lost them in the
wild that much quicker.”

But the move saved the birds from being killed by hunters or from eventual lead
poisoning.

And, the breeding program, well, let’s just say the numbers speak for themselves.
Down to 22 birds in 1987, today there are now 327 California Condors. And more
than half of those birds are back in the wild.

Bill Heinrich says next spring some of these condors will be released some where
around the Grand Canyon in Arizona.

That’s where the birds will once again be exposed to one of the factors that lead to
their decline. It’s not hunters these days. The birds are protected by the Endangered
Species Act. But lead poisoning. Condors feed on gut piles and carcasses left by
hunters. If a hunter uses lead bullets, the bullet will explode sending tiny fragments
of lead through the meat. It’s enough to make a condor sick. Heinrich says lead
poisoning remains the single biggest threat to the birds.

“You know if hadn’t been for the lead issue coming up, I would have thought, I
didn’t have any reservations about it being successful until the lead problem cropped
up.”

Every year, biologists have to test the birds for lead poisoning. They’ve been working
with the Arizona Game and Fish Department to hand out free non-lead bullets to
hunters in the area. Last year, not a single condor died from lead poisoning. This
year, biologists have had to treat six birds, all of which are expected to make a full
recovery.

In California, the state has banned lead ammunition because of the lead poisoning
concern. But hunters don’t think lead bullets are a real problem, and they really
don’t want to pay for different kinds of bullets because that is a lot more expensive.

For The Environment Report, I’m Sadie Babits.

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